The concept One Being for Two Origins, from the teachings of Buddha, considers the unification of technology, nature, and human beings. It emerges from the theory of the three aspects: The values of the “Good”, the “Bad”, and “Muki” (Avyakata). The theory of One Being for Two Origins follows the theory of the three aspects and explains a mechanism for how values, such as the good and the bad, emerge in reality using the three aspects. The theory has a contradictory structure, hence it can be difficult for those with a scientific background to fully comprehend it. In this interview, Nagoya University’s Associate Professor Hiroko Kamide shares with us her insights on robot ethics, with a focus on One Being for Two Origins.

Date: December 5^th 2016

Interviewee: Prof. Hiroko Kamide, Designated Associate Professor, Nagoya University, Japan

Interviewer: Dr. Yueh-Hsuan Weng, Co-founder of ROBOLAW.ASIA and Fellow at CLAST AI & Law Research Committee (Beijing) and Tech and Law Center (Milan)

Q1 WENG: Thank you for agreeing to an interview with us. Can you tell us a little about yourself and your background?

KAMIDE: My background is social psychology. During my doctoral course, I studied close relationships and well-being. After receiving my PhD, I started researching human-robot interaction and collaborated with engineers to help realize so-called “human-friendly robots”. We established psychological methods to evaluate humanoids, and subsequently developed human-friendly behaviors for robots. I still collaborate with engineers to consider the adaptive way of introducing advanced technology, such as robots and self-driving cars, from an interdisciplinary approach.

 Q2 WENG: Currently you are also in charge of a special interest group on robots and philosophy at The Robotics of Japan (RSJ). Can you tell us something about your RSJ Special Interest Group on Philosophy in Robotics?

KAMIDE: In the RSJ group, we discuss the approach to  technology from an interdisciplinary standpoint. The members are from psychology, philosophy, law, sociology, and engineering. Psychological evaluation, like technological advancement, is important to realize robots that your average person can accept in their daily-life. This collaborative work between psychology and engineering is crucial to developing technologies that can satisfy a human’s needs and expectations. But sometimes we experience terrible events that we cannot control: nuclear accidents, wrongful use of robots, etc. Therefore we started to investigate what the appropriate approach is when implementing and dealing with the cutting-edge technology. It’s a the responsibility of researchers to convey information to ordinary users about how we should deal with technology in order to maintain harmony between technology, nature, and humans.

Q3 WENG: What is the theory One Being for Two Origins? Why is it important to the unification of humanity and nature?

KAMIDE: The theory of One Being for Two Origins has a contradictory structure, and it’s difficult for those with a scientific background to fully understand. At the first step, we begin with a theory of values—the theory of the three aspects—as an introduction to the theory of One Being for Two Origins. The theory of three aspects explains the mechanism of how values, such as good and bad, emerge from the three concepts of the good, the bad, and the “Muki”. Then the theory of One Being for Two Origins follows the theory of three aspects as the fundamental mechanism of order. Through the theory of One Being for Two Origins, we become able to recognize the truth and biases behind language, and as such can avoid conflicts between technology, nature and human-beings.

Q4 WENG: Your paper “One Being for Two Origins – A necessary awakening for the future of robotics” has been presented at the 2016 IEEE ARSO Workshop in Shanghai, China. The co-author is Professor Masahiro Mori, who is a world famous roboticist because of his “uncanny valley” theory. How come you decided to choose this topic? Does the concept One Being for Two Origins have any relationship with “uncanny valley”?

KAMIDE: His theory of uncanny valley has a very thoughtful and groundbreaking perspective, therefore many researchers in the world still refer to his theory. As for my impression, he developed a very clear sense of perspectives that leads us to understand the theory of uncanny valley. His method of observing the truth of the world is in line with the teachings of the Buddha.

Q5 WENG: Regarding regulation for robotics, you pointed out that there is widespread misunderstanding from regulators. What is the misunderstanding? What kind of legal crisis will materialize if they don’t change their way of thinking? How can your proposed theory help solve this legal crisis?

KAMIDE: As the theory of three aspects explains, the value of good and bad are just derived from Muki, that transcends such values and is a true quality of the technology. Useful technology is positive. On the other hand, it would be bad if technology harms people. Technology is fundamentally neither good nor bad. It’s the manner in which technology is applied and operated by humans that is either good or bad. It is humans themselves that attribute these aspects to the technology.

Regulations are attempts to eliminate the bad aspects of technology. However, it is not correct to assume that only the good remains when the bad is eliminated, because technologies themselves are the Muki. And if bad did not exist, good would not exist either, as one is parasitic on the other. To eliminate the bad is to interfere in the working of the Muki in producing these values. The same occurs robots.

Our mindset determines how we approaches the Muki. If we are not mentally prepared, Muki will transform into bad. If we are mentally prepared, we can treat the Muki as good. Bad can transform into good then, of course, good can also transform into bad. And the more good qualities a robot possesses, the stronger its bad qualities will be, following the transformation. Sharp scalpels save lives, but sharp daggers kill people. This is because the working of the Muki is powerful.

In all cases, the mindset of humans is crucial. So, the responsibility of us in robotics is to ensure that technology is not used in bad ways. We must both establish methods of using robots, and work to refine users’ mindsets.

Q6 WENG: Robotics is like a double-edged sword, it can either help or kill people. Robotic lethal weapons present a dilemma. Should they be banned or not? Do you have any comment on this?

KAMIDE: The problem is not in robotics but in ourselves—we who raise such dualistic questions. As I mentioned, the technology of robotics doesn’t have any values. Robotics is not double edged sword at all; our minds are double edged. People easily attribute these values to the physical entity but it is not true. We have to try and observe the fact that we see not what we see, but what we want to see.

Q7 WENG: Do you agree with using dualism as the meta-principle to teach robots right from wrong? If not, do you think it is possible to adopt your theory into creating ethical robots’?

KAMIDE: The “right” and “wrong” is always in the eye of the beholder, and there are no absolute standards. As long as humans accept that they are subject to subjective mechanisms of perceiving the world, it won’t be troublesome to develop ethical robots. But if humans see the “right” and “wrong” as existing independently, objective, it will be definitely problematic.

Q8 WENG: What are major challenges for implementing One Being for Two Origins into robot ethics?

KAMIDE: Clarifying the importance of applying wisdom, not just knowledge. In this theory, knowledge refers to the ability to divide the phenomena into detailed classifications in order to understand the difference between things. On the other hand, wisdom is necessary to discover the meaning in the different things. Knowledge is developed through education, usually, but wisdom is not taught explicitly. Therefore, we are accustomed to dualistic thinking based on knowledge, that divides the world into its constituent parts, but we have difficulty uniting the parts using wisdom, in a way of monism. This is one of reason that we often raise dualistic questions, and eventually develop conflicts.

Q9 WENG: Professor Shigeo Hirose gave an insight called “Morality Engineering” in his short review “A Dialog on Robots” Vol. 7, No. 4, JRSJ. Do you think that One Being for Two Origins might be helpful in implementing his proposal of “Morality Engineering”?

KAMIDE: His article is very interesting. Opinions from both sides who are optimistic or pessimistic to a robotized future society are quite realistic and thoughtful. Recently many philosophers have started to think about morality in robotics. His “Morality Engineering” suggests implementing “rational egoism”, and I agree with the importance of this approach. One Being for Two Origins is the methodology to transcendent and unify opposite aspects of the phenomena to see the truth. So it is helpful to consider how “rational egoism” truly functions in the interactions between humans and robots.

Click here to read Hiroko Kamide’s paper “One being for two origins — A necessary awakening for the future of robotics”.

If you enjoyed this article, you may also also enjoy:

• Considering robot care, ethics & future tech at #ERW2016 European Robotics Week
• On the ethics of research in robotics, with Raja Chatila
• A European perspective on robot law: Interview with Mady Delvaux-Stehres
• Open Roboethics initiative delivers statement to United Nations CCW

See all the latest robotics news on Robohub, or sign up for our weekly newsletter.

Many of us from the Robohub team were at the landmark Uncanny Valley session at IROS this year – it turned out to be one of those wish-I’d-been-there events for anyone unlucky enough to have missed it.

Even people who were attending that day knew they would want to relive the experience: I was recording audio of the speakers for my notes, and several people sitting nearby slipped me their cards in hope that I would share the file with them later.

Lucky for all of us, Erico Guizzo captured the whole session on video and this is now available, along with some follow-up footage on IEEE Spectrum. Freshly posted today.

I do not normally shout, but if you did not see this session live, GO SEE IT NOW!!

In case you are unfamiliar with the concept, he also just posted this fun piece where the speakers try to explain the Uncanny Valley in less than one minute.

Let me explain.

Almost all of the presentations at IROS were abstract and technical except for the discussion about Prof. Mori’s Uncanny Valley theory. First of all, he was there and described how he came to observe the uncanny valley under different situations and circumstances. Secondly, all of the presenters and audience were respectful of Prof. Mori’s work, his theory, and him as a person. Third, and most interesting to me, each of the other speakers in this special lecture session described how the uncanny valley theory was relevant in different settings and disciplines. In art, philosophy, psychology — in the works of David Hanson and Hiroshi Ishiguro (both of whom were there) — as well as in medicine, prosthetics and in robotics in general. To me it was a reminder that robotics crosses sciences and connects with humans in many different forms, and this tribute presentation at IROS brought the personal relationships and the breadth of their reach to the forefront, and away from the abstract, theoretical and mechanical side of IROS.

In this video by IEEE/Spectrum, filmed outside the door of the room where the session was held, one can clearly see the multi-science and psychological/philosophical aspects of the theory:

Worse, 90% of scientists don’t even know whether their research is “new” or not.

Ever since I learned of the IBM Watson Jeopardy project my mind has been fascinated with possibilities for practical applications. IBM is on that trail as well and is using Watson to help with medical diagnoses and legal research and briefing. My idea is to get the NSF and IEEE (and other organizations) to commission a Watson project to synthesize robotics and AI-related science papers into a meaningful resource for all to use. At present, there are so many papers published that a researcher cannot possibly read them all. Consequently we don’t even know what we already know. But with Watson, we could know — and we could redirect research activities truly into the unknown without reinventing things over and over.

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The Uncanny Valley Revisited was a special tribute to Emeritus Professor Masahiro Mori, organized by co-chairs Ken Goldberg, UC Berkeley and Minoru Asada, Osaka U. Masahiro Mori’s 1970 article, Bukimi no Tani Gensho, described a phenomenon of unease that is felt as animated beings become more similar to real beings.

Labelled the ‘uncanny valley‘ in reference to Freud’s concept of the Uncanny (Unheimlich), Mori’s work first appeared in translation in 1978 and proceeded to be broadly adopted in the art world and cultural/social sciences. Astonishingly, Mori believes that robotics only noticed his concept in the mid 2000s, when papers citing the uncanny valley were presented at HRI conferences. Elizabeth Jocum from Aarlsberg U was one of several to speakers to point to the early and deep impact of Mori’s idea in other disciplines, including the arts.

It’s apt that the art world was first to appreciate the Uncanny Valley hypothesis, as Freud himself said that the uncanny is the only thing more strongly felt in art than in life. It’s also a dynamic rather than a static phenomenon, as other speakers attested. Marek Michalowski discussed the impact that animators have had on the field of human robot interaction. After all, animation has been a strong field for over 100 years and is primarily concerned with creating a compelling imitation of life. In the process, animators utilize much more than just the static superficial appearance of a character. Sound, perspective, staging, background, color and timing all enhance or destroy the illusion of life.

Freud’s original concept of the uncanny is also more closely aligned to general anthropomorphism, where the impact is less on the closeness of appearance to human and more on the human ability to ascribe emotion, agency and symbolism to logical, mechanical events or objects.

Mori intended for his theory to be a simple warning for robot designers to consider the possible affect of their constructions, and he calls for robots to be made less life-like or human-like, as he wishes for technology to have positive and not negative contributions to the world.

Robots are already out there in the world, and I think we are frequently unprepared for the range of anthropomorphism that even unlikely looking robots can attract. This is well described in the work of Nass and Reeves in The Media Equation and leads to the ‘new ontological status’ hypothesis put forward by Kahn Jr, Reichardt, Kanda and Ishiguro. Generally speaking, I find that roboticists oversimplify the uncanny valley hypothesis. Mori himself describes it as a clue rather than a theory, so it was refreshing to hear so many great speakers give it much needed dynamism and depth.

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